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zaidon
Racer


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

A new Misano raceline. Based from Steve Sullivan PAT for Misano track. Re-edit to make 500cc, my P9 and T800 bike physics perform competitive races.

This raceline is just an initial editing I've made an hour ago. After 4th editing in 500cc race, Biaggi (1998) with 1:35.7s. With some inputs, it can be improved more.

Here is the track.csv source:
Code:
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2065,190.104004,-4.181500,30.000000,15.000000,4.000000,4.000000
1..187,
1..177,188..210,
1..187,


PAT file download: track(MisanoJarama).pat

zaidon.
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srsully
Champion


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 12:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

WOW
You've taken about 7 seconds off my pat times ,
Considering 2007 superbikes are faster than 1998 500cc bikes then the times are excellent
I tried it in the Catalunya folder that I had it in and it was slightly faster
Great Job
steve
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zaidon
Racer


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Steve. I guess I got lucky when editing this track raceline today. I just follow your PAT editing tips as usual, the result were coming up quite fast.

Triming it further down is expected to be hard as a brick wall. So, I think the best way is to join forces with anyone who interested in improving it. If anyone can contribute even a corner improvement, it will finally makes better raceline when it's done. Wink

my principle of editing PAT file is to match the closest gp500 stock circuit laptime by comparing it's size. I think the final laptime should be achieved for Misano is similar to Jarama (between 1:28s to 1:32s for 500cc with 120% strenght). Then it should be fast enough if Misano track files being placed in other track folder.

zaidon.
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Seby#19
Racer


Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 227
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:29 am Reply with quoteBack to top

will a replay with good racing lines help?

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zaidon
Racer


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yeah a good replay would helps. But not kind of a normal hotlap replay. The AI depend a lots to the smoothness of the braking values. The more corners having a smoother braking entry values, the better it would be useful to construct the raceline improvement.

Furthermore, if the replay being made using only manual braking and the rest is auto with no bike setup, it will be more useful since the AI will using exactly the same with variation on braking parameters.
View user's profileSend private message
zaidon
Racer


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:05 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Okay, here is another update. This raceline will makes AI to spin up their rear wheel out of some corners similar to the original GP500 track raceline. It was almost impossible to do with previous source data without changing the 6th and 7th columns.

So, I finally take the way of editing back to the root of GP500 raceline techniques. With the new improvement, Doohan and Biaggi (500cc 1998), doing 1:33.2s with 120% strenght and using Jarama folder to host Misano track files. I think, the track now should suitable to be placed in PI track folder. But I'm still thinking Jarama folder was the perfect match since both has similarity with flat elevation terrain. But if you get faster result on other track folder, please post here the lap-time and folder used for the track.

Below is the new source with reduced corner speed and wheel-spin exits on some corners. Has more closer race between AI riders. You could compare with the above what changes tha I've made.

Code:
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17,101.889000,-18.390800,30.000000,15.000000,0.010000,0.010000
32801,140.929001,-15.260300,30.000000,15.000000,0.010000,0.010000
17,169.768005,-11.259100,30.000000,15.000000,8.000000,2.000000
2065,190.104004,-4.181500,30.000000,15.000000,4.000000,4.000000
1..187,
1..179,188..210,
1..187,


Here is the compile PAT file: track_misano_rcl2.pat

zaidon.
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motoreto
Rookie


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Zaidon!! Laughing .

Only have a problem with it. In the Misano I have installed, the IA goes off-road a lot of times, just like they were following a diferent road. My version is MISANO beta by cbr600f98 released in October 2005. Maybe there is another one (newer?) with a diferent model?.

EDIT: Ok, I've just found the "newer" Misano, everything works fine now. Stoner setting a 1:30.7 after a few laps Laughing . Will be hard to match.


Excellent work, as usual.
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srsully
Champion


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 1:04 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Zaidon ,a couple of seconds faster
A small fact you might not know in relation to the 7th and 8th columns
We know it is the width of the race line and a rider cant accelerate properly if he is outside this line ,which is why if you increase these values to the full width of the track the riders have a quicker time ,but there is a value in the riders pat file
see below
127.815;
2.172;
458.034;
0.984016;
these a part of a group of four values for each track in order
127.815 would be the qualifying time in seconds
2.172 is the riders variation from the race line ,which is why some riders
run off the track ( remember you Miami track how some of the lesser riders were hitting the kirbs )
I know the original pat files used the whole track but there was quite a few track where riders ran off
458.034 is how many seconds before the rider leaves the pits during qualifying
0.984016 is just a decimal fraction of the fastest qualifyers race time
pole man value would be 1: and 125.772 seconds
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zaidon
Racer


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

srsully wrote:
2.172 is the riders variation from the race line ,which is why some riders run off the track ( remember you Miami track how some of the lesser riders were hitting the kirbs )


I think this value also been used when an AI rider want to get-by slower player or another AI rider in front of him. That would possibly also relate to the "risk taking decision" value the particular AI has. Is there Risks Level in rider .dat?

If there is, I think it has some sort of allowance such as more or less 95% of the above value for available available within the raceline width on left/right of player/AI, so he can make a hot move.

If the raceline width is too narrow, 2 bikes will occupied the same space when an AI rider make a move (the faster one) and the collision would trigger unreal visual movement for one of them. The result may cause one of the bike "jump" a few feets high over the other rider. These case is so often from the first source above since there is no room to passing, yet the value is say so in rider.dat file.

For the running off track or hitting the sidewall, I think its related to a couple of things such as the the 6th and 7th was too wide and the point of acceleration were incorrect. The other elements also trigger the effect which is the braking value allowance was too low or too high for particular AI rider. Thats will make a few AI riders data may not suitable for a very tight race and possibly need change.
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Seby#19
Racer


Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 227
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Ok here's the replay: Misano - Jarama replay and sry for the delay.
I did a 40% race without setup and only with manual brakes (T800 Ducati bike). Most of my lap times were in high 27s and low 28s. The AI's lap times were around low 30s, i beat them by 25 seconds after 12 laps (AI strength: 120%).
The AI's lines were pretty good in the first half of the track but they lose too much in the second part of the track. In the long left side corner in the middle of the track they accelerate too soon and they have to brake just before the next straight so they lose there more than 0.5. They also lose pretty much in the chicane, they stay too much in the middle of the road when they enter the right corner when they should be right next to the ripple. Also in the last 2 corners they lose pretty much, they should stay right next to the ripple at low speed in the last corner so they can exist with full speed.
If i were to use a setup and manual gears + lean i would beat them by 5-6 seconds per lap and almost +1 lap after 12 laps so even with the best possible update i doubt it will ever be fun for faster guys. But i hope it will help medium/slow riders to have some fun. Sad
Btw those first 2 corners were a nightmare for me, i barely touched the ripples and i was on the ground. That could be a good fix for the future. Also the real guys will race at Misano the other way around (backwards).
I hope it helps. Embarassed

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zaidon
Racer


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Seby,

It's a quality feedback which is I think will helps very much to improve this project.

I made a little update based on your feedback above. It strengthen where the weakness area that you has pointed out. No improvement on laptime yet. I will examine your replay data and will be used on next update.

Here is the file: track_Misano_rcl3.pat

Please, keep me informed if the AI laptime has improved with this update.

zaidon.
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Seby#19
Racer


Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 227
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:38 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This is after the first corner, they stay too much in the middle of the road and they dont accelerate as soon as they should. They should be in the left side, right next to the ripple (they are not there because they dont accelerate as fast as they should).
Image

This is one of the 3 left side corners before the back straight, they accelerate too fast so they have to brake hard... thats where they lose a bit time, they should take it easy coming out of that corner and maintain 50% of the accel, they shouldnt brake there... In the next corner neither to accel, nor to brake, just to keep the bike steady and turn it in time so they can accel hard into the next corner. In this case watch the replay for more details, i remember i was side by side with them when i enter the first of those 3 corners and when i'm at the end of the back straight i'm already 400 meters in front of them (0.5 seconds or so).
Image

Here at the chicane, they take the first corner pretty well (the one from the right side) but they dont turn the bike as much as they should so when they turn into the next corner they touch the ripple or the grass so they lose a bit. In this picture, they should be 1 meter more to the right side (make them turn more).
Image

Here is how they exit, if they turn better in the first corner they wouldnt have problems in this corner...
Image

Per total the lines are much better than before but the lap times are similar, they only did few high 29s and best 29.4, the rest of the laps were still in 30s.
After fixing those 3 corners where they still lose some time you should work on how they should accelerate out of corners. Accelerating one fraction faster/sooner (only in some corners) could make them do 28s...

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zaidon
Racer


Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 6:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hey Seby,

Thanks with the helps for the related corners improvement. I've fixed that one already. But now I'm getting hold up by a "brick wall". I cannot get any further an improvement for the AI laptime. The best improvement was 0.3 second and it stop there. The strange thing is the total race time has keep going down up to 9 seconds. Yet, no more laptime improvement.

When I refering back to your replay I can't recognized which lap was your fastest and best lap since there is no result screenshot like the TT session. If you can tell me which lap that you do the best time, I may get further clue to break this obstacle.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: ps - @TOY, off course I'll submit the PAT file to the Store as in a ZIP package once I get a final version together with addition LOD model of the track that I've made.

zaidon.
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Seby#19
Racer


Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 227
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

zaidon wrote:
When I refering back to your replay I can't recognized which lap was your fastest and best lap since there is no result screenshot like the TT session. If you can tell me which lap that you do the best time, I may get further clue to break this obstacle.

Hi, the lap times were:
lap1: 1:31.2
lap2: 1:28.3
lap3: 1:27.7
lap4: 1:27.8
lap5: 1:27.9
lap6: 1:28.5 etc
I made that replay for the racing lines and also a decent lap time but i didnt push too hard (only for lap times). For racing lines i think the 2nd lap was pretty good (except the chicane).
I made a new replay, this time it was only about lap times: 1:27.3 replay.
It has only 2 laps, in the second lap i did 1:27.3, the tyres were still cold so with a bit more practice i think i can get a 26'.

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zaidon
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Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:56 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks again Seby. The fastest laptime from the 'perfect' line is an important data that would revail the secret of overall raceline improvement. Whilst the a few data from your 2nd replay will confirmed the appropriate brake speed I need to used.

Now AI begin to show improvement particularly on consistency of their laptime and total race time. I've used data from from your 1st replay so AI could have low/high variations during a race session.

One thing that give me a question mark is my GP500 result always 1 second slower than you guy's result. May be due to my ancient gfx card. I've both OBP file and was still the same result. The only different is I'm using a re-converted single track.dk4 with LOD structure in it.

I think this PAT project for Misano has accomplished. Thanks to everyone who give the support in this thread. I will sent the final version with the track LOD model which is currently being re-organized to improve the speed of the in-game race sessions.
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